Norway’s Prime Minister on Balancing a Clean Energy Future

Guest

Jonas Gahr Støre

Prime Minister, Norway

Transcript

Jonas Gahr Store: In the Nordic countries traditionally the question has been, “No, we don’t fear new technology. We fear old technology.” Because being stuck with old technology is in the long run disastrous.

Jason Bordoff: According to recently released data, Norway is the first country in the world with more electric vehicles than gas-powered cars on the road. At the same time the country’s Western Europe’s largest oil and gas producer with a total output of over four million barrels of oil equivalent per day. While the country aims to be carbon-neutral by 2030, Norwegian oil and gas investments are expected to hit a record high this year and will remain strong in 2025. So, where does Norway stand on the global energy transition? What is its role in ensuring Europe’s energy security, and how’s the country’s leader thinking about the difficult choices at the heart of the energy transition?

This is Columbia Energy Exchange, a weekly podcast from the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University. I’m Jason Bordoff. Today on the show the Prime Minister of Norway, Jonas Gahr Store. Prime minister Store came into office in 2021 and has been leader of the Norwegian Labor Party since 2014. He previously served as Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of Health. Prime Minister Store was formerly the chief of staff at the World Health Organization and held several senior positions there. I interviewed Prime Minister Store live at the Columbia World Leaders Forum here in New York during climate week, we discussed Norway’s progress in becoming a green energy hub in Northern Europe, and spoke about the obstacles the country faces in its pursuit of a green and secure energy future. Columbia students then joined the conversation asking thought-provoking questions on everything from Norway’s role in the global energy transition to the insights that the country could offer the rest of the world. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Thank you, Prime Minister Store, thank you for a really, really good overview of the situation in Norway and teeing up such important and difficult challenges about how we meet the world’s energy needs, how we do it in ways that are increased energy security, reduced geopolitical risk, and of course, accelerate the pace of transition to net zero and try to address the climate crisis better than we’re doing today. It’s a real privilege to have the chance to spend time with you in New York, although, it’d be even better to spend time with you in Norway, because it’s one of my favorite countries in the world. It’s stunningly beautiful and it’s a privilege to get there a couple of times a year. Because it is such an important country for the energy of the world still use. Oil use is going up every year. Gas use is going up every year. That’s where we are today, not where we want to be necessarily.

And of course, a critically important country for the energy transition for clean energy, and as we saw over the last few years in particular for energy security particular to the continent of Norway. And let me just say there’s so much to cover, we’re going to talk for a couple of minutes and then we’ll take questions from here in the room. Most of the time will be for that. I’d ask if you do have a question to please ensure it’s in line with the topics that the Prime Minister is here to talk about. Keep your questions brief and direct, but just to start with the situation in Europe and how you see the overall situation today in terms of Norway’s role in the energy crisis is the energy crisis over. We just had an important report come out from Mario Draghi about competitiveness in Europe, the overall state of European economic competitiveness. Is the energy crisis a thing of the past? And in retrospect, do you think that the energy crisis of the last few years slowed down or accelerated the transition to clean energy?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, I would say the acute crisis is behind us, because the acute crisis came when there was kind of this very clear dependence on Russian gas. And let me take the historic perspective. There were years during the Soviet Union years where the Soviet Union was delivering gas to Europe, and they never failed on their contracts.

I remember the Reagan administration was selling West Germany that you have to cut your purchase of gas from the Soviet Union, because you are going to put on the pressure, that never happened. So, this is more of a kind of Putin effect that what happened in the fall of 2021 that the storage of gas run by Gazprom and Russian interests in Europe were exceedingly low. And people were asking, “Why are they low?” And half a year later they understood they were low, because when the war came and gas became this very critical asset, vulnerability in Europe came up and then the crisis came. I think that has been settled. There were two mild winters, so it was not really put to the extreme. If you live in Ukraine, it is extreme. There’s an energy crisis. They lack electricity, which the Russians are bombing, and they lack also gas to run through a winter. So, that’s point one.

I don’t think there’s an energy crisis, but there is huge job for Europe to do to succeed this renewable transition when 20-something countries are going to do that in some kind of sync. There is nuclear in France, you have countries depending on gas, you have an infrastructure on transmission, which is not really made for one market. And if we’re going to do renewables with sun and with wind and with hydrogen, you are moving into sources which are not stable. You need supplementary sources and all this has to be coordinated, so that’s a huge task for Europe. That of course can be done in a way which is at the same time as I say, cutting emissions, creating jobs, because you’re going to create new industries with new technology and new opportunities. So, I think the crisis is behind us, but the political task and the technical task of succeeding transition is monumental.

Jason Bordoff: And you talked about the enormous potential for renewable energy, other forms of clean energy, offshore wind, for example, solar as well, as you said, in Norway. And we’ve seen announcements recently that the mostly state-owned company Equinor is scaling back some of the plans that has for its renewable energy unit. I saw yesterday that it was canceling a big plan hydrogen pipeline that had been announced between Norway and Germany, because a lot of these clean energy projects are facing economic challenges. And I’m just wondering how you see what the current state of the energy market, how much momentum do we have behind clean energy and what more does government need to do to help encourage that?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, I think it’s a very interesting question. First, we discover the potential of offshore wind. And again, a country with a world’s second-largest coastline obviously has a potential for offshore wind, because we have the shore and there’s steady wind, good conditions, so that is good. Around the North Sea Basin every country is considering now offshore wind. Then you have a typical market reaction that when many actors want to do the same thing at the same time, prices go up. I think for the whole offshore wind business, you see it here in the U.S. as well, East Coast, West Coast, prices for the fundamental issues here going up and projects are being pushed.

I may be wrong, but my interpretation is that this is a hiccup that we will have to live with. No transition is straightforward, can be planned step by step. There will be ups and downs, but I cannot see how with two thirds of the world population living close to the shores of this world, how offshore wind cannot be an important source in the future. It’s clean. If it’s well planned it can be done without coming in conflict with traffic, sea traffic and so on and so forth. So, that is a question whether you will have the endurance to stay the course.

Second observation, some of this is new technology, which is going to need some government support to get off the ground. How do we strike that balance? How much is government prepared to pay to support to get going? And my conviction is that Norway we have made money on oil and gas, we should use part of that money to transition into the new one. So, that is the second observation.

The third one is that we are going to discover that there are some industrial and physical dimension to this that we’ll have to respect. What you read about Equinor, which is really as I see it focusing on how it can transition into the renewables. If you want to do hydrogen you have to make it from another source, being it green hydrogen coming from wind power, for example, or blue hydrogen coming from gas where you have taken out the CO2. But the question here is, does it make sense to produce hydrogen in Norway and build a pipeline thousands of kilometers pushing that hydrogen to the continent? Or do you rather send the gas to the continent, take out the CO2 and send it back to Norway and then produce the hydrogen close to where industry is? Industrially that probably makes more sense, but these are political complex issues which have to be negotiated and deliberated between governments but also between industries and expertise.

Jason Bordoff: Yeah, it’s a good topic for our School of Engineering and some others to work on. You showed that slide of all the pipelines, oil, gas, all the energy infrastructure around Norway to the UK to Europe. I’m just wondering if you could say a word given what we’ve seen in the last few years, attacks on pipelines, attacks on sub-sea cables, attacks in the Red Sea on tankers. How do you think about energy security to the energy infrastructure of Norway?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, it’s a matter of utmost importance for us since the beginning to secure that. I mean, some will say that the biggest threat to energy infrastructure today is digital, because the degree of digitalization on modern energy systems, the way grids are operated, the way you optimize transport of an energy source is highly digitalized. And of course, now with artificial intelligence it can be further optimized. So, the vulnerability from hacking and from these kind of attacks there.

Then the German Chancellor and I have agreed on an initiative where NATO countries will establish common capacity inside NATO to cooperate with private industry on security on our sea infrastructure. But you see there are two things here. One is the platform you can see. You want to protect that platform, but the pipelines on the seabed, you don’t see that, it’s quite a different business. And I showed you the platforms transporting gas, but you think about the fibers connecting Europe and the U.S. crossing the oceans, that’s yet another big vulnerability. This is what is connecting us. You can send your images back to Europe, my Norwegian friends can send back to their family, but it’s all depending on a whole universe of infrastructure on the seabed. So, I think being attentive to that, looking after that security, which no country can take fully on its own, it has to be a very close corporation.

Jason Bordoff: Let me just ask you, you spoke to this in your remarks, but just to ask you to say a little more and push you a little more on it, Norway is one of the most important countries for clean energy. Most of the new cars sold are electric. Most of the electricity is hydropower and zero carbon energy. And of course, a major oil and gas producer and some environmentalists in Norway around the world see that as being intention, see that for some as hypocritical. You spoke to that and said, “This is a process of transition. It’s going to take a very long time.” Norway’s producing a few million barrels a day and this is a process of transition and you’re thinking about how to make that cleaner and lower carbon over time. I guess the question I want to ask is, that answer, “It’s 100 million barrel a day market, we’re producing a couple of million or whatever the number is, and we’re going to do it better than anyone else and cheaper than anyone else.” That’s what I hear every country say.

And so the question is, it can’t be true for everyone if we’re going to have a multi-decade process of transition. And to the point about people who have no energy access, they might say we want energy access. They might say we want to maybe get the revenue from our oil and gas resources, because Norway got rich and Saudi Arabia got rich and maybe it’s our turn. How do you see the tension between this process of transition? Who gets to keep producing in an equitable and just transition, and what does that mean for how Norway approaches energy policy, oil and gas, as well as transition policy?

Jonas Gahr Store: First of all, I think they’re perfectly legitimate questions and I can ask them to myself several times. Sometimes I answer the following way, isn’t this a dilemma that Norway on the one side we have a population really pushing for the green solutions and we are very conscious about that? I just now stare at the UN that Norway will continue its major investment in rainforests, the preservation in Brazil, Colombia, Indonesia, spend a lot of money on that and extend it to 2035, all that sort of thing. But still you go on with oil and gas. My answer is, yes, it is a paradox. It is the whole world’s paradox. Because as you say, Professor, we are transitioning out on this, so the question is, how do we do that best? And I think there’s one question, will you do it through supply side or demand side?

I think there will have to be a combination, but we are now pushing the CO2 tax quite systematically to 2030. It will reach what is about $200 plus per ton. And when you pass a certain step here, industry will say, “Okay, we will transition because it makes sense economically.” We have to make, I believe that it has to be driven by the demand side. Supply side should be attentive, but it has to be driven by the demand side. So, when prices for sun and wind comes down and you increase the cost of emissions, that transition point comes and it starts to happen.

Then I believe that, for example for gas, I would ask the question, it is not the gas in itself which is the problem, it is the emissions from gas. If you can have a safe procedure to limit and even eliminate the emissions from gas, I think you can extend the period of using gas in a rational way, because gas is a stable source and you need that stable source next to your wind. It may be nuclear, it may be hydro, it may be gas, but if you have nothing, what do you do the day there is no wind, no sun? And that happens. So, I see very clear that that transition is going to happen. It is happening. Norwegian continental has reached its peak and it’s going down. And what we can do is really to push on the technological front so it happens faster. And engage on the initiative that I mentioned that we pay our share of getting electricity to the rest of the world population.

Jason Bordoff: One more quick question from me. If folks have questions and get ready to ask them, please begin forming lines near our question takers, which I think are over there. If you could come up by the two people with the microphone and just very quickly, you’re a leader on clean energy at home, also on climate finance in the rest of the world. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about what needs to be done by governments in particular, but maybe philanthropy too, to really mobilize capital at scale for clean energy and emerging and developing economies?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well first, there are mechanisms from the Paris Agreement to create a fund structure that will support developing countries in their transition. They have to be fulfilled. And my government, when he came in office, we have been tripling our contributions to climate finance. And again, Norway is a small country, but I believe what happened at the last conference of the parties of the COP last year in Dubai was a major step forward on that. But these fund mechanisms are not going to deliver all of it, I think. You need to create financial structures that will support and incentivize investments in renewable energy from industrial partners and from private sector. And that’s something we work on now. I think the World Bank has a very progressive leadership right now. Want to see how they can come in and multiply what we put into it, and we want to work very closely with the World Bank on that so that we mobilize. Because my mantra is still, cut emissions, create jobs, you can do both. And people fear that this is going to take away their jobs. I think we can create another story.

Jason Bordoff: Thank you. All right, as I said, we’re going to use most of the time for questions, and there are a lot, and feel like we might not-

Jonas Gahr Store: [inaudible 00:17:27].

Jason Bordoff: Please, please, please might not get through them all, but let’s do as many as we can. Please go ahead. And if folks could brief very briefly introduce themselves and keep the questions brief.

Kalensbrofsky Fenster: Hi, my name is Kalensbrofsky Fenster. I’m a freshman majoring in political science at Columbia College. My question is about nuclear energy, and I know you mentioned it earlier with France. I come from Vermont, which had one nuclear power plant and when it was shut down it devastated numerous local communities. My question is, do you believe there is a place for nuclear energy in a climate-focused Norway and broader world in recognizing its land efficiency and high-energy output?

Jonas Gahr Store: I think there is a place for nuclear in the big global energy mix in the future. What is it now, Professor? About 15% IEA, nuclear?

Jason Bordoff: Globally or in the U.S.?

Jonas Gahr Store: Globally.

Jason Bordoff: Yeah, yeah.

Jonas Gahr Store: About 15. And what I hear IEA is saying that in 2050 it will be about the same. What about Norway? We don’t have nuclear. Our expertise is in water, hydro, oil and gas, and potentially offshore wind. The advice we get is that those countries that have experience with nuclear could consider developing that further. Countries that don’t, it will be very expensive and it will take long time.

Second observation, when I was a freshman nuclear was something we really feared. Because of accidents, what do you do with the waste? And I note with interest that the use on my political party, and the most of them call themselves progressives, they’re pretty open to it. We have set in motion in my country, a group to make a study on should nuclear makes sense in Norway. And in due respect to that work I will wait to see it. But my inclination is that it will take a long time, it will be very expensive, and I don’t see that will be our avenue.

Jason Bordoff: We’ll go up, we’ll rotate sides. So we’ll go to the other aisle. And again, very briefly.

Sam: Hello, Prime Minister, my name is Sam, I’m a graduate student here. I wanted to thank you for being here today. And before my question also, thank you for recognizing Palestine as an independent state. My question is regarding the first topic actually brought up that Europe is seeing declines in its economy and its growth and its productivity. And there are some fears shared among Europeans that policies to remedy this may interrupt Europe’s green initiatives and social welfare. My question to you is, do you feel that … Do you share those concerns, and do you think that if Europeans decide to focus on their economy and productivity they may leave Norway and you behind in this green initiative?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, Norway is not member of the European Union, but we have a close agreement with their market and we are very close. And I have signed with the European Union a green Alliance where we work together on climate issues, technology and so on. There is a challenge to European productivity. And if you read the news, the Draghi report put an emphasis on that. All the reports are emphasizing that you have here in the U.S. three or four tech giants, Europe has about 250. So, in this big transition of where technology is driving change, Europe has a job to do on regulation, on cooperation, and increasing productivity. So no doubt about it, and I think it is better achieved through some kind of cooperation and direction, and it’s something that I think this new European commission will make its priority.

Speaker 5: Hello, Prime Minister, thank you so much for joining us today. I am a renewable energy researcher at Columbia University and I found the topics that you discover and cover today very insightful. My question is on the current EU investigation in Chinese automaker, and as Norway is very committed to electrification of commercial vehicles, I was wondering how the potential increase in tariffs of the European Union might affect Norwegian car economy? And as well as, how does Norway benefit or find a balance in this dilemma, if you will?

Jonas Gahr Store: You mean with the Chinese industry? Well, here is the case. Norway again is not member of the European Union and we don’t produce cars. So, the extra levy which Europe considers putting on Chinese cars, that is European Union decision. We don’t have legislation or method to do that. But when I was in China two weeks ago and spoke to Chinese leaders, I told them that, “We don’t plan to do that in Norway because it’s outside our scope.” But I believe China has to give better answers to Europe and the world. How is this a fair trade? And this is a real issue. I supported 20 years ago in another function that China should join the World Trade Organization, but trade has to be transparent and fair and it is of course complex to decide what is a subsidy if you have a cheap land lease for your factory status subsidy or whatever. But there are valid questions asked by Europe, and Chinese China should give valid answers.

Alejandro : Thank you, Prime Minister, I come from Ecuador. My name is Alejandro, sophomore at Columbia College. I come from Ecuador, a country that is currently experiencing outages of eight plus hours per day because of a lack of structure and primarily just water surrounding hydroelectric power. For a country with such a tough economic situation, how would you suggest starting and fully implementing a clean energy transition when the only solution seems to be getting energy from fossil fuels in times of crisis like the one we’re living now?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, every respect for that being a big challenge, but I would imagine from Ecuador’s position that your potential of getting energy from wind and sun is huge. And as cost of sun and wind comes down at the pace it does now, I think it opens some big opportunities. But what we see from international cooperation is that the energy source may be there and it is affordable. Even the money, the finance may be there and is available, but the technical expertise to implement it is not there. You don’t have the grid and you don’t have the experts who will see how do you connect those dots. And that’s where I think international cooperation will really be needed and that we need to work together here to make available expertise that can help a country like Ecuador to really put that use energy resources that you may have. I mean, Ecuador also has a cost, so you have the opportunity if we can help to get prices down for offshore wind, it will next phase benefit country like yours.

Jason Bordoff: Next question, please?

Alexander: [foreign language 00:24:07]. My name is Alexander, I’m a Norwegian student who came here to study in part because of the unparalleled innovation specifically within AI machine learning. With the recent Draghi report, I was wondering, how are you thinking about increasing Norwegian competitiveness and investment specifically in technology? Thank you.

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, my friend, happy to see you here studying important things which will be important for Norway. Last year I created a ministry for digitalization. On Thursday when I’m back in Norway we will present our strategy for digital Norway. And Norway is, believe it or not, we are the world’s probably almost top digitalized country in terms of using digital solutions. Our point of departure I think of making use of these opportunities is big. And I believe as a social democrat that one key here is not only technology, but this is the way you distribute knowledge, how you make people capable of benefiting from that knowledge. Because if this is an elite project, you’re not going to benefit and get productivity. This is a bit like Henry Ford about cars. He needed employees who could buy the cars. So for me, this is really about how we get this in a meaningful way into schools.

The big challenge in schools is that we need to get part of the digital stuff out the schools. I am now prohibited mobile phones in schools in Norway. When the kids come at school in the morning they have to hand them in and they get them back after school. And I see that there’s a fall in the reading skills in Norway, probably because we keep reading on our screen. So, we have great ambitions for this. Welcome you back to take part in that. And again, we have the objective of 80% of public service being able to benefit from AI by a few years ahead. But it has to be focusing on equity and it has to be focusing on really a wide distribution of skills and knowledge.

Jason Bordoff: Next question, please?

Vaughn Gardner: Good afternoon, Prime Minister. My name is Vaughn Gardner. I am studying sustainable development at the School of International Public Affairs. Referencing earlier to your point about development African project 300. Numerous African states are struggling with finance, climate finance, transitioning projects, finance that is available to them is too expensive. Numerous countries such as Nigeria have started sovereign wealth funds of their own from their own natural resources. But a major criticism of them is that the moment those sovereign wealth funds in Africa are servicing debt payments and it’s not going to where it should be going. What role can Norway play and obviously with sovereign wealth fund help African states develop their sovereign wealth funds to transition that finance to climate finance?

Jonas Gahr Store: We do, my friend, we do, and we have programs. I was meeting yesterday with the president of Namibia, and Namibia has come to Norway to learn from how we did part of management of our revenue. There is no one-size-fit-all here, but we say there may be parts of our experience that may benefit you. So, we are working with them to help them when they try to set up a sovereign wealth fund. And that will be different in Nigeria, which is an also energy country with energy income. So, to the extent we have capacity, we share that capacity through our development corporation, but also the Bank of Norway, which is running our sovereign wealth fund, is also making expertise available to countries who want to try this.

Vaughn Gardner: Next question, please?

Alex Rosen: First of all, thank you, Prime Minister for being here and your enlightening words. I’m Alex Rosen, I’m a freshman from Mexico City and my question is, how do you reconcile your climate goals with the private industry, which might not be so long-sighted?

Jonas Gahr Store: You need to create the balance here, I think between sticks and carrots. There’s a lot of money to be made If you are early on in this transition. If you believe that this transition has to succeed, you better be an early runner than lagging behind. And the benefit of being ahead, as you’ve seen in the technological sphere, I mean, if you look at the tech giants here, those who are in front, they may be winner-owns-it-all. I think that should be clear that we are adamant we’re going to make this transition.

And I see that among young people and also in management in Norway, I think most companies see that this is happening. It’s happening at the farm, it’s happening at the factory, it’s happening out there in the shipping industry. When I was in China two weeks ago I was with a Norwegian company that has, because Norway is a major shipping company, that has commissioned 10 of the world’s largest car carriers. And this is a new technology which is going to run potentially on ammonia, perhaps cutting all emissions from sea transport. And if you are first in that domain, it can be a huge thing. The other one is to use regulation and simply to set the targets. To say that this is going to close down and it’s going to be you have to find another way. So, it’s this balance, I think that is the trick.

Jason Bordoff: Please, next?

Speaker 10: Hi, [inaudible 00:29:47], first student [inaudible 00:29:50] University or [foreign language 00:29:51] for third home. [foreign language 00:30:00] Angus. Given the increasing geopolitical challenges in the Arctic and the emphasis on sustainable development, how does Norway plan to strengthen its collaboration with other Nordic country to address environmental protection and security concerns in the region?

Jonas Gahr Store: I think the Nordic countries, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland, we have pretty similar approach to climate change, climate issues, environmental protection, following up on climate, following up on nature, these issues, the culture is pretty similar. Our geography as you see is pretty different. Norway has its ocean outlook, Sweden and Finland more inbound. Iceland is the island out in the ocean, so that’s a bit different. But we cooperate on this and I think we have the objective of reaching our climate targets. On security, the big new dimension here is that as are now, all Nordic countries are NATO members. And it hasn’t happened since the 14th century that the Nordics were in the same security structure. Now we are much more on the line to say that we are mutually bound together in security. We are a threat to none, but we are going to cooperate so that nobody will have the idea to threaten us.

And that is a new dimension for the Nordic countries, because when you see us from the outside, we look pretty similar. But when you see us from the inside, and my Norwegian friends know, there are big differences in history, experience, geography and economy. But the security dimension now, and if you live in the U.S. you can almost not imagine what this war in Ukraine does to our perspective. And Russia is our neighbor and we are the only neighbor of Russia with whom they have never been at war. At the same time, having a neighbor that has invaded another country with 150,000 troops and waging the war they do now makes you think. So, this security dimension here, the Nordics being together, is something which is under this very dire circumstances a good thing.

Jason Bordoff: Next question, please?

Shivram : Hi, my name is Shivram and I’m here in Columbia reading sustainability management. Thank you so much for your time. And it’s not every day you get to interact with the head of the state, so I just want to pivot the conversation a little to international affairs and energy. A lot of these, as you mentioned about climate change and shift to renewables, a lot of these countries are still developing. For a developing country the conversation is still about development and not sustainable development. And since especially at this moment, a lot of developing countries are moving towards authoritarianism and development is not essentially helping the public. Are countries like Norway and other countries, other world leaders are able to weigh in and give their thought and reduce this authoritarianism impact in general? Or does it encroach too much only sovereignty of that particular nation?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, this is a complex thing, because how can you really … It used to be that you’re not allowed to interfere in internal affairs of other countries. And then when I was in your position I said, “That may be right, but on human rights and on international obligation I have the right to express myself. Not to interfere physically, but I can challenge you for human rights.” Now, on this transition, I think that I heard one recent example, Vietnam, a country in growth, maybe they need more electricity and maybe be wondering, should we go for another 50 coal-fired plants, we know how to do it? Or should we do wind and solar, onshore, offshore, which is cheaper and which is future? And here I think the international community should have an interest to weigh in to make that to be the choice.

And same thing with China. I mean, now they are leading on renewables, but they still have a huge amount of coal-fired plants and continue to build that. As much open international cooperation and making expertise available is preferable. And then I mean, over at the UN now we can see, I think President Biden made a good point today in his speech, he said, “I have been here for one term, I had planned for two terms, but probably it is right for me to make another choice. Sometimes leaders should step down.” And I think that was an appropriate remark to whole of people where there are leaders sitting there who were never elected and don’t have a plan to step down. So, we applaud President Biden for that one.

Jason Bordoff: Thank you. Next question, please?

Maxim: Good afternoon, Mr. Prime Minister. My name is Maxim, I’m from the Czech Republic studying international affairs. My question is fairly simple. You clearly have a plan for Norway in terms of energy transition and renewable resources, but how do you make the others, the other major players to do the same?

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, I think, again, the way the world has tried to go around this is that we have a Paris Agreement. And it could ideally be another method to do this transition, but the method is based on the fact that the world is composed of states, and each state has to commit to reduce emissions in its state. And the European Union to which you belong, and we are working with them, we have together set the ambition of cutting emissions by 55% by 2030. And for industry and for a number of the economy we do that together with the trading system, with quotas which we can trade to get emissions down. That’s one way of doing it and I think the European Union is probably the most advanced setting of international cooperation working to reach these targets. But then in addition, the Czech Republic and all of the countries like mine will have to do things to push that transition from home.

Jason Bordoff: Please?

Lydia: Hello, Prime Minister. My name is Lydia. I go to SIPA, I come from Indonesia. My question would be, how does Norway ensure law enforcement at home in your own country in the energy sector and some of the largest emitters from your presentation are developing countries. What is Norway doing to help facilitate energy transition in developing countries, given in developing countries corruption is still one of the biggest major obstacles to energy transition and even most basic things such as education and infrastructure? So, thank you.

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, environmental and even climate criminal activity has to be monitored. And we need authorities and police to follow up if there are suspicions about any kind of deviating from the procedures adopted. We have that in our country and there are regular cases coming up like that. I think on the international level we are, for example, I mentioned engaged in supporting your country to limit cutting down the rainforests, which is a system where we pay together with other countries for the farmers in Indonesia not to cut the forests, so you’re paid not to do something. And again, you need a very strong monitoring system to see that that is being observed. And so we do it in Brazil, we do it in Colombia, we do it Indonesia, and obviously, if we come across examples through the monitoring mechanisms that this is not being respected, money is held back. That’s what we can do. I mean, there’s not the criminal court for breaching these obligations. Maybe one day we will have one.

Jason Bordoff: Next question?

Kiki : Hi. Thank you, Prime Minister. Thank you for joining us today. My name’s Kiki and I’m first year graduate student in environmental engineering. And my question would be, how is Norway fostering job creations in green industries? And what advice would you give to young professionals and students who are looking to contribute global energy transition? Thank you.

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, I would try to put myself in your head for a moment saying, “What are the exciting jobs of the future? Where are things really in transition?” Some people will be made up saying, “I will stay away from transition, because it’s insecure.” All the people like you and me will say, “Well, that’s where I want to be. I want to be part of this.” And we can see that also from the Norwegian universities and what students are looking for that these themes are attracting people. Those who do economics and business, they want to see what is the business case for this transition. More and more of those coming out of engineering, they would like to go into renewable business rather than into oil and gas. But this can also fluctuate with how the economy works, because if you run into deep problems in the economy and you have unemployment, people become a bit more risk averse.

I think for the government, the challenge is really to keep the message there, demonstrate that this is the future. And again, slogan on my party, is cutting emissions, creating jobs. And the last point here is something which I like to share with you, because this is a bit Nordic, the technological change is extraordinarily rapid. And with artificial intelligence it will be transformational. And then you have the question, “Do you fear new technology?” And many people will say out there working that, “I do, I fear new technology, because I fear for my job.” But in the Nordic countries, traditionally the question has been, “No, we don’t fear new technology, we fear old technology.” Because being stuck with old technology is in the long run disastrous.

But the only way you can keep that social contract alive is that people are secure that if things change, I will be assisted, helped for training, getting new qualification, being able to take new jobs. But if the answer is that if new technology comes we will ditch you and you’ll be out, then people will resist change. And again, that’s why I’m a social democrat, because I think it’s part of our thinking that there’s got to be equity, there’s got to be opportunity for all. And that’s why education is so important.

Jason Bordoff: Okay, we have just three or four minutes left. We’ll get as many as we can. And apologies if we may not get to everyone. Please go ahead.

Garrett: Hi, my name’s Garrett. I’m senior studying applied math at School of General Studies. And a question specifically about the sovereign wealth fund. We talked about this a little, the initiative to electrify 300 million African homes, but in general, I’m wondering if there’s political appetite to, on the one hand boost things like infrastructure finance with that fund that could have an outsized impact on other countries that like Norway are not totally electrified, so on the one hand. And then the other, it seems like the sovereign wealth fund, there’s a lot of ethical checks and divestment. I was just reading about this earlier, divested recently from general dynamics, from tobacco companies, all this. Is there any appetite for taking the new approach that’s become popular in the U.S. where instead you engage in shareholder activism? Because I know that Sovereign Wealth Fund holds one and a half percent of the world’s equities, absolutely massive.

It seems like you had a lot of political pull in some way on some of these multinationals and that maybe by just dumping the shares you’re missing out on an opportunity to adjust corporate policy in some kind of way.

Jonas Gahr Store: Well, Garrett, this is a great question. This is the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund coming from a country of five and a half million people. And that’s why we decided never to make that fund a foreign policy tool. Because if you have a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail, you know that slogan. But you should be careful if you are a small country that is open to the world and you make yourself vulnerable through that position. That’s why our decision back then in the ’90s was to say, we will spread our investment. So we basically have two, three, 4% shares of about eight, 9,000 companies worldwide. And our objective over time is to follow the growth of value creation with a little surplus.

When I discuss with colleagues in the Gulf, take Qatar or the United Arab Emirates, they have a very different structure. They are active strategic investment fund, so they may take 20% of a share. But we don’t want to end up as Norway owning a major part of New York Harbor coming into conflict with government here and there. So, we have moved resources from underground into the bank and we don’t want to politicize this.

And that is, I’ll take one more example. People say, “Why don’t we sell cheap gas to our friends to help them?” Again, if you start that trade, you come under pressure. What we say, we are going to sell at market price, but then we will say from part of what we revenue we can help that country, assist it. Again, this is a sovereign wealth fund, which is almost at 50% invested in this country, because it is seeking to be operational. It is arm’s length from government. My colleague from Qatar is CEO of that fund, I am not. It’s the Bank of Norway and was set up there, decided by the parliament. And then parliament has decided that, “We don’t want that fund, which is going to be for eternity, to be invested in tobacco, to be in other branches, which are against international regulations.” So we try to keep that level.

Jason Bordoff: again, my apologies to those still in the queue, but we’ve reached our full time with the Prime Minister and unfortunately we have to bring the program to a close. It really is a privilege to have a chance to engage in this kind of dialogue with head of state from such an important country, particularly in the area of energy and climate change, a fascinating discussion on some really important topics. And it’s been a real privilege to be with you, Prime Minister Store, thank you for making time during ongoing climate [inaudible 00:44:46] to be with us at Columbia.

Thank you again, Prime Minister Store, and thank all of you for listening to this week’s episode of Columbia Energy Exchange. The show is brought to you by the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University School of International and Public Affairs. The show is hosted by me, Jason Bordoff and by Bill Loveless. The show is produced by Tim Peterson from Latitude Studios. Additional support from Lilly Lee, Caroline Pitman, Kevin Fitzmaurice and Q Lee. Sean Marquand engineered the show. For more information about the podcast or the Center on Global Energy Policy, please visit us online at energypolicy.columbia.edu, or follow us on social media, @ColumbiaUEnergy. And please, if you feel inclined, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts, it really helps us out. Thanks again for listening. We’ll see you next week.

According to recently released data, Norway is the first country in the world with more electric vehicles than gas-powered ones on the road. At the same time, the country is western Europe’s largest oil and gas producer, with a total output of over four million barrels of oil equivalents per day.

While the country aims to be carbon neutral by 2030, Norwegian oil and gas investments are expected to hit a record high this year and will remain strong in 2025.

This week, host Jason Bordoff talks with Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre in a live event recorded at the Columbia World Leaders Forum in New York during Climate Week.

They discussed Norway’s progress toward becoming a green energy hub in Northern Europe and spoke about the obstacles the country faces in its pursuit of a green and secure energy future. Columbia students then joined the conversation, asking questions about everything from Norway’s role in the global energy transition to insights the country could offer the rest of the world.

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